master keying schlage locks - why no #1 master pin?

[Philip Weiss]

Hi -

I got a Schlage rekeying kit to put some of my locks on the master system,
but something puzzles me. Why is there no #1 Master Pin size? I understand
that it would be tiny, but what do I do if I need one. At least I assume
that I need one if the bitting on the change key and the master key are one
pin length different. The system _was_ set up by a good locksmith (at least
he has a good reputation and has done good work for me in the past), and he
put in a keying that had a 3 on the master and a 2 on the change key. My
next step is to take one apart that he did to see what he has in there, but
before I messed up a lock that works, I thought someone might be able to
fill me in on the logic behind the missing length of master pin in my kit.

Thanks,
Philip

[--Shiva--]

Post by Philip Weiss
Why is there no #1 Master Pin size?

they dont like 'chances' it seems..
--Shiva--

[nice2cu]

The reason for no #1 master pins, which by the way is true for most
manufacturers, is that the #1 master pin is as thin as some tolerances
between the core and the housing itself. It is common practice that the #1
pins get caught in between and usually end up scoring the core and stopping
the core from turning in the cylinder housing. This is not the only reason
but probably the best for NOT using #1 master pins.
M

Post by Philip Weiss
Hi -
I got a Schlage rekeying kit to put some of my locks on the master system,
but something puzzles me. Why is there no #1 Master Pin size? I understand
that it would be tiny, but what do I do if I need one. At least I assume
that I need one if the bitting on the change key and the master key are one
pin length different. The system _was_ set up by a good locksmith (at least
he has a good reputation and has done good work for me in the past), and he
put in a keying that had a 3 on the master and a 2 on the change key. My
next step is to take one apart that he did to see what he has in there, but
before I messed up a lock that works, I thought someone might be able to
fill me in on the logic behind the missing length of master pin in my kit.
Thanks,
Philip

[Philip Weiss]

Certainly makes sense. But what do I do if I need one, i.e. the master
needs a 3 and the regular key needs a 2?

Post by nice2cu
The reason for no #1 master pins, which by the way is true for most
manufacturers, is that the #1 master pin is as thin as some tolerances
between the core and the housing itself. It is common practice that the #1
pins get caught in between and usually end up scoring the core and stopping
the core from turning in the cylinder housing. This is not the only reason
but probably the best for NOT using #1 master pins.
M

Post by Philip Weiss
Hi -
I got a Schlage rekeying kit to put some of my locks on the master system,
but something puzzles me. Why is there no #1 Master Pin size? I

understand

Post by Philip Weiss
that it would be tiny, but what do I do if I need one. At least I assume
that I need one if the bitting on the change key and the master key are

one

Post by Philip Weiss
pin length different. The system _was_ set up by a good locksmith (at

least

Post by Philip Weiss
he has a good reputation and has done good work for me in the past), and

he

Post by Philip Weiss
put in a keying that had a 3 on the master and a 2 on the change key.

My

Post by nice2cu

Post by Philip Weiss
next step is to take one apart that he did to see what he has in there,

but

Post by Philip Weiss
before I messed up a lock that works, I thought someone might be able to
fill me in on the logic behind the missing length of master pin in my kit.
Thanks,
Philip

[--Shiva--]

Post by Philip Weiss
Certainly makes sense. But what do I do if I need one, i.e. the master
needs a 3 and the regular key needs a 2?

IMO... that is NOT a good situation... change the regular key.
make that 2 either a 1 or a 5
trivia-too and this I have been TOLD, cannot VERIFY..
NO 'factory keyed 'Schlage uses a 0 or 1 or a 2 cut, the
shallow starts with a 3, UNLESS the lock is master keyed.
then they get into the 0 1 2 cuts

--Shiva--

[Roger Shoaf]

Post by Philip Weiss
Certainly makes sense. But what do I do if I need one, i.e. the master
needs a 3 and the regular key needs a 2?

You don't need one. You need to select a change key from the designed
master key system.

The fact that you ask this question suggests that you shouldn't be
masterkeying locks until you have a full grasp of the subject.

[Bob DeWeese, CML]

Post by Roger Shoaf
The fact that you ask this question suggests that you shouldn't be
masterkeying locks until you have a full grasp of the subject.

At least he's _trying_ to learn. Cut the guy some slack.

Did everybody get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?


--
Bob DeWeese, CML
***@spaammbearlock.com (remove"no spaamm")
www.bearlock.com
www.edgemerebiblechurch.org

Bear Lock & Security Service, Inc - A full service locksmith company
specializing in professional, cost effective solutions to your
Commercial, Residential, Safe, and Automotive Security Problems.

<>< Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may
lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares
for you. 1 Peter 5:6-7

[Philip Weiss]

Thanks.

Post by Bob DeWeese, CML

Post by Roger Shoaf
The fact that you ask this question suggests that you shouldn't be
masterkeying locks until you have a full grasp of the subject.

At least he's _trying_ to learn. Cut the guy some slack.
Did everybody get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?
--
Bob DeWeese, CML
www.bearlock.com
www.edgemerebiblechurch.org
Bear Lock & Security Service, Inc - A full service locksmith company
specializing in professional, cost effective solutions to your
Commercial, Residential, Safe, and Automotive Security Problems.
<>< Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may
lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares
for you. 1 Peter 5:6-7

[Philip Weiss]

If you've never done anything until you had a full grasp of it, then you
show a distinct lack of imagination.

I didn't select the change key. Someone who aledgedly has a full grasp of
the subject did. I'm just trying to figure out what he did, why, and if I
should be going to a different locksmith in the future.

I like your idea of leaving out the stack though, at least in the short term
until I can fix what he did.

Thanks,
Philip

Post by Roger Shoaf

Post by Philip Weiss
Certainly makes sense. But what do I do if I need one, i.e. the master
needs a 3 and the regular key needs a 2?

You don't need one. You need to select a change key from the designed
master key system.
The fact that you ask this question suggests that you shouldn't be
masterkeying locks until you have a full grasp of the subject.
--
Roger Shoaf
About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

[Evan]

Post by Philip Weiss
Hi -
I got a Schlage rekeying kit to put some of my locks on the master system,
but something puzzles me. Why is there no #1 Master Pin size? I understand
that it would be tiny, but what do I do if I need one. At least I assume
that I need one if the bitting on the change key and the master key are one
pin length different. The system _was_ set up by a good locksmith (at least
he has a good reputation and has done good work for me in the past), and he
put in a keying that had a 3 on the master and a 2 on the change key. My
next step is to take one apart that he did to see what he has in there, but
before I messed up a lock that works, I thought someone might be able to
fill me in on the logic behind the missing length of master pin in my kit.
Thanks,
Philip

Ok Philip, it is clear that you have a severely limited knowledge of master
keying and how locks in general work as far as mechanical tolerances...

Schlage uses .015" increments for its bitting depths, which means that when
you properly master key Schlage locks you would have to use a two-step
progression in your system design... This is because the difference between
the increment steps is small enough that given the average cylinder
tolerances keys off by only one increment in either direction (deeper or
shallower) than the key intended to operate the lock can and will with a
little bit of "jiggling", and that possibility gets easier as the locks
become older and worn with use... Someone else also posted that a master
pin with an increment of 1 (which would be .015") could easily find itself
jammed in between the plug and the shell, which could interfere with the
functioning of the lock...

Any properly designed master key system for Schlage locks would use a
two-step progression, meaning that depths for a given pinning chamber would
be two apart for different keys operating that lock... Odd/Even
(1,3,5,7,9... or 0,2,4,6,8...) While it is possible to make keys only off
by one increment in a pinning chamber work, your example was: "a 3 on the
master and 2 on the change key", it is done by altering the lock in a way
that weakens its overall security... It is most commonly accomplished by
pinning the lock to the shallower key bitting (in this case a 2) and then
chamfering the pin chamber in the plug (usually done by hand with a drill
bit) so that when the key with the deeper bitting is used the top pin will
ride up on the now wider pin chamber opening in the plug and allow the lock
to turn... I have seen this on countless locks that I have rekeyed... It
is a very undesirable condition that makes it much more difficult to rekey
that lock into a properly designed system in the future without replacing
the cylinder in question... Even more so when this "technique" is used on
more than one chamber of the lock...

So the "missing" master pin in size number 1 doesn't exist because the
manufacturer knows the design tolerances of the lock, and in order to have
locks that are the most reliable and secure that they can possibly be...
They are be design not intended to have keys that are only off by one step
in the same pinning chamber... This is to prevent key interchange (safety
and security) and also to prevent the lock jamming because the very thin
size that a number one master pin would have to be could escape the chamber
easily and get caught between the plug and the shell (reliability)...

I hope that this helps you... Although I strongly caution you against
altering any of your locks in the method described above as it reduces the
security of the lock... I recommend that you look at your entire master
system: make a chart with all the key bittings listed, and a pattern of some
kind should become apparent... This will help you to determine if this
condition is widespread or only used in a few locks of your system... If no
pattern of any kind develops in your list (see above Odd/Even parity) then
you should seriously consider having a new master key system created by
another locksmith...

Evan the Maintenance Man...

[Philip Weiss]

Actually, I think I have a pretty good idea of how master keying works, and
how locks in general work, and I understand mechanical tolerances quite
well. I think maybe you have a fairly poor ability to read past the first
couple of lines. Then you might have seen that I implied almost explicitly
that I understood that a #1 pin would be unfortunately small, but found
myself needing one for a reason not of my own making. Then you might have
addressed what seems to be the real issue here, which is that the
"professional" may have done something that you think is a poor practice,
which you seem to think is something that _I_ wanted to do. I appreciate
you're sharing your knowledge; it confirms that maybe I _do_ want to take
apart the lock he rekeyed to see what he did. But, I was hoping to avoid
that, since they do actually work (i.e. they are keeping a door locked, and
they open with both the master and the change key), and to take it apart,
they would no longer be keeping that door locked, and changing the keying is
a pain as well, since it involves coordinating getting new keys to people.
So, I thought that someone might have insight into what the issue was with
the lock, and whether the locksmith actually was a hack. I just didn't
realize I needed to be abused before I could get some advise.

Thanks for your help,
Philip

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
Hi -
I got a Schlage rekeying kit to put some of my locks on the master system,
but something puzzles me. Why is there no #1 Master Pin size? I

understand

Post by Philip Weiss
that it would be tiny, but what do I do if I need one. At least I assume
that I need one if the bitting on the change key and the master key are

one

Post by Philip Weiss
pin length different. The system _was_ set up by a good locksmith (at

least

Post by Philip Weiss
he has a good reputation and has done good work for me in the past), and

he

Post by Philip Weiss
put in a keying that had a 3 on the master and a 2 on the change key.

My

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
next step is to take one apart that he did to see what he has in there,

but

Post by Philip Weiss
before I messed up a lock that works, I thought someone might be able to
fill me in on the logic behind the missing length of master pin in my kit.
Thanks,
Philip

Ok Philip, it is clear that you have a severely limited knowledge of master
keying and how locks in general work as far as mechanical tolerances...
Schlage uses .015" increments for its bitting depths, which means that when
you properly master key Schlage locks you would have to use a two-step
progression in your system design... This is because the difference between
the increment steps is small enough that given the average cylinder
tolerances keys off by only one increment in either direction (deeper or
shallower) than the key intended to operate the lock can and will with a
little bit of "jiggling", and that possibility gets easier as the locks
become older and worn with use... Someone else also posted that a master
pin with an increment of 1 (which would be .015") could easily find itself
jammed in between the plug and the shell, which could interfere with the
functioning of the lock...
Any properly designed master key system for Schlage locks would use a
two-step progression, meaning that depths for a given pinning chamber would
be two apart for different keys operating that lock... Odd/Even
(1,3,5,7,9... or 0,2,4,6,8...) While it is possible to make keys only off
by one increment in a pinning chamber work, your example was: "a 3 on the
master and 2 on the change key", it is done by altering the lock in a way
that weakens its overall security... It is most commonly accomplished by
pinning the lock to the shallower key bitting (in this case a 2) and then
chamfering the pin chamber in the plug (usually done by hand with a drill
bit) so that when the key with the deeper bitting is used the top pin will
ride up on the now wider pin chamber opening in the plug and allow the lock
to turn... I have seen this on countless locks that I have rekeyed... It
is a very undesirable condition that makes it much more difficult to rekey
that lock into a properly designed system in the future without replacing
the cylinder in question... Even more so when this "technique" is used on
more than one chamber of the lock...
So the "missing" master pin in size number 1 doesn't exist because the
manufacturer knows the design tolerances of the lock, and in order to have
locks that are the most reliable and secure that they can possibly be...
They are be design not intended to have keys that are only off by one step
in the same pinning chamber... This is to prevent key interchange (safety
and security) and also to prevent the lock jamming because the very thin
size that a number one master pin would have to be could escape the chamber
easily and get caught between the plug and the shell (reliability)...
I hope that this helps you... Although I strongly caution you against
altering any of your locks in the method described above as it reduces the
security of the lock... I recommend that you look at your entire master
system: make a chart with all the key bittings listed, and a pattern of some
kind should become apparent... This will help you to determine if this
condition is widespread or only used in a few locks of your system... If no
pattern of any kind develops in your list (see above Odd/Even parity) then
you should seriously consider having a new master key system created by
another locksmith...
Evan the Maintenance Man...

[ed]

stopped reading his reply after 2 paragraphs as i picked up his attitude
as well.
thanks for telling him he is a jerk.
ed

Post by Philip Weiss
Actually, I think I have a pretty good idea of how master keying works, and
how locks in general work, and I understand mechanical tolerances quite
well. I think maybe you have a fairly poor ability to read past the first
couple of lines. Then you might have seen that I implied almost explicitly
that I understood that a #1 pin would be unfortunately small, but found
myself needing one for a reason not of my own making. Then you might have
addressed what seems to be the real issue here, which is that the
"professional" may have done something that you think is a poor practice,
which you seem to think is something that _I_ wanted to do. I appreciate
you're sharing your knowledge; it confirms that maybe I _do_ want to take
apart the lock he rekeyed to see what he did. But, I was hoping to avoid
that, since they do actually work (i.e. they are keeping a door locked, and
they open with both the master and the change key), and to take it apart,
they would no longer be keeping that door locked, and changing the keying is
a pain as well, since it involves coordinating getting new keys to people.
So, I thought that someone might have insight into what the issue was with
the lock, and whether the locksmith actually was a hack. I just didn't
realize I needed to be abused before I could get some advise.
Thanks for your help,
Philip

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
Hi -
I got a Schlage rekeying kit to put some of my locks on the master

system,

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
but something puzzles me. Why is there no #1 Master Pin size? I

understand

Post by Philip Weiss
that it would be tiny, but what do I do if I need one. At least I

assume

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
that I need one if the bitting on the change key and the master key are

one

Post by Philip Weiss
pin length different. The system _was_ set up by a good locksmith (at

least

Post by Philip Weiss
he has a good reputation and has done good work for me in the past), and

he

Post by Philip Weiss
put in a keying that had a 3 on the master and a 2 on the change key.

My

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
next step is to take one apart that he did to see what he has in there,

but

Post by Philip Weiss
before I messed up a lock that works, I thought someone might be able to
fill me in on the logic behind the missing length of master pin in my

kit.

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
Thanks,
Philip

Ok Philip, it is clear that you have a severely limited knowledge of

master

Post by Philip Weiss
keying and how locks in general work as far as mechanical tolerances...
Schlage uses .015" increments for its bitting depths, which means that

when

Post by Philip Weiss
you properly master key Schlage locks you would have to use a two-step
progression in your system design... This is because the difference

between

Post by Philip Weiss
the increment steps is small enough that given the average cylinder
tolerances keys off by only one increment in either direction (deeper or
shallower) than the key intended to operate the lock can and will with a
little bit of "jiggling", and that possibility gets easier as the locks
become older and worn with use... Someone else also posted that a master
pin with an increment of 1 (which would be .015") could easily find itself
jammed in between the plug and the shell, which could interfere with the
functioning of the lock...
Any properly designed master key system for Schlage locks would use a
two-step progression, meaning that depths for a given pinning chamber

would

Post by Philip Weiss
be two apart for different keys operating that lock... Odd/Even
(1,3,5,7,9... or 0,2,4,6,8...) While it is possible to make keys only

off

Post by Philip Weiss
by one increment in a pinning chamber work, your example was: "a 3 on the
master and 2 on the change key", it is done by altering the lock in a way
that weakens its overall security... It is most commonly accomplished by
pinning the lock to the shallower key bitting (in this case a 2) and then
chamfering the pin chamber in the plug (usually done by hand with a drill
bit) so that when the key with the deeper bitting is used the top pin will
ride up on the now wider pin chamber opening in the plug and allow the

lock

Post by Philip Weiss
to turn... I have seen this on countless locks that I have rekeyed... It
is a very undesirable condition that makes it much more difficult to rekey
that lock into a properly designed system in the future without replacing
the cylinder in question... Even more so when this "technique" is used on
more than one chamber of the lock...
So the "missing" master pin in size number 1 doesn't exist because the
manufacturer knows the design tolerances of the lock, and in order to have
locks that are the most reliable and secure that they can possibly be...
They are be design not intended to have keys that are only off by one step
in the same pinning chamber... This is to prevent key interchange (safety
and security) and also to prevent the lock jamming because the very thin
size that a number one master pin would have to be could escape the

chamber

Post by Philip Weiss
easily and get caught between the plug and the shell (reliability)...
I hope that this helps you... Although I strongly caution you against
altering any of your locks in the method described above as it reduces the
security of the lock... I recommend that you look at your entire master
system: make a chart with all the key bittings listed, and a pattern of

some

Post by Philip Weiss
kind should become apparent... This will help you to determine if this
condition is widespread or only used in a few locks of your system... If

no

Post by Philip Weiss
pattern of any kind develops in your list (see above Odd/Even parity) then
you should seriously consider having a new master key system created by
another locksmith...
Evan the Maintenance Man...

[Evan]

"Philip Weiss" wrote in message:
.

Post by Philip Weiss
Actually, I think I have a pretty good idea of how master keying works, and
how locks in general work, and I understand mechanical tolerances quite
well. I think maybe you have a fairly poor ability to read past the first
couple of lines. Then you might have seen that I implied almost explicitly
that I understood that a #1 pin would be unfortunately small, but found
myself needing one for a reason not of my own making. Then you might have
addressed what seems to be the real issue here, which is that the
"professional" may have done something that you think is a poor practice,
which you seem to think is something that _I_ wanted to do. I appreciate
you're sharing your knowledge; it confirms that maybe I _do_ want to take
apart the lock he rekeyed to see what he did. But, I was hoping to avoid
that, since they do actually work (i.e. they are keeping a door locked, and
they open with both the master and the change key), and to take it apart,
they would no longer be keeping that door locked, and changing the keying is
a pain as well, since it involves coordinating getting new keys to people.
So, I thought that someone might have insight into what the issue was with
the lock, and whether the locksmith actually was a hack. I just didn't
realize I needed to be abused before I could get some advise.
Thanks for your help,
Philip

Well from your original post which included: -- "I got a Schlage rekeying
kit to put some of my locks on the master system, but something puzzles me.
Why is there no #1 Master Pin size? I understand that it would be tiny, but
what do I do if I need one. At least I assume that I need one if the
bitting on the change key and the master key are one pin length different.",
kind of lead me to _assume_ that you did not have an adequate level of
knowledge about locks or master keying, especially when you pose the
question "what do I do if I need one", which you then repeated in your
second post... I am sorry but your defense of "I understood that a #1 pin
would be unfortunately small, but found myself needing one for a reason not
of my own making" only further proves that you do not possess enough
knowledge to safely master key locks... In this case your idea of
"unfortunately small" is something that doesn't exist, as Schlage doesn't
make these number one size master pins...

There is more to master keying than dropping pins into a cylinder... It
takes a deeper understanding of the brand of locks you are using then you
currently possess based upon my "assessment" of your posts...

You should be able to take apart this 'other' lock to see what your
locksmith did to 'make it work' and put it back together without any adverse
effects... Your reluctance to do this to answer your question to begin with
and your earlier statement of "but before I messed up a lock that works"
leads me to believe that you really are unsure of your capabilities to do
that correctly... I am sorry that you interpret my pointing out your
obvious lack of skill as abuse, I did not mean it as that, and you putting
it that way should have provoked you into thinking about letting a locksmith
deal with your issue... In the event you do open up your other lock to see
how it works... The method that I described in my previous post is the most
common method that is used , but there are a few others... Including one
which you would not be able to see unless you removed your follower tool and
examined the top driver pins...

I hope that maybe you have come to realize that just because your lock
'works' that it may not have been put together properly, and having said
that your master key system could be prone to problems because of a lack of
skill on the part of the person who created it... Your comment of: "Then
you might have addressed what seems to be the real issue here, which is that
the "professional" may have done something that you think is a poor
practice, which you seem to think is something that _I_ wanted to do.",
truly baffles me... Why would you ask what to do if the master key is a 3
and the change key is a 2 if you did not intend to pin up a lock in that
configuration... As to your describing this condition as me thinking it is
a 'poor practice', you are wrong on that... It is a dangerous practice and
any properly and adequately trained locksmith would not do such a thing to
your lock... I do not "think" this, it is a widely known and accepted
fact...

I am also truly sorry to see you express your feelings in this area,
"changing the keying is a pain as well, since it involves coordinating
getting new keys to people.", as the security of any building depends on
rekeying frequently especially with locks that are not using patented
keyways... People in your building are probably much more efficient at
coordinating the duplication and distribution of keys that you don't have
knowledge of to people who maybe shouldn't have them...

Just because you didn't like the "blunt" nature of my post don't go calling
it abuse... The 'real world' can truly abuse you if you are the one who
does something to a lock and something later happens that leads anyone to
question your skill level because things were stolen or a person was
attacked... If you considered my thoughts on this "abuse" I wonder what you
would consider being held liable for damages in a lawsuit???

Evan the Maintenance Man

[Bob DeWeese, CML]

I think Evan just has some bad days sometimes. I thought he was a little
out of line, too. Don't know why.

Most of the regulars here treat him quite civilly and he has, on a few
occasions, been quite (let's see -what's a good word) arrogant(?) to some of
them (myself included). I have my suspicions as to why, but I'll keep them
to myself.


Bobby

--
Bob DeWeese, CML
***@spaammbearlock.com (remove"no spaamm")
www.bearlock.com
www.edgemerebiblechurch.org

Bear Lock & Security Service, Inc - A full service locksmith company
specializing in professional, cost effective solutions to your
Commercial, Residential, Safe, and Automotive Security Problems.

<>< Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may
lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares
for you. 1 Peter 5:6-7

Post by Philip Weiss
Actually, I think I have a pretty good idea of how master keying works, and
how locks in general work, and I understand mechanical tolerances quite
well. I think maybe you have a fairly poor ability to read past the first
couple of lines. Then you might have seen that I implied almost explicitly
that I understood that a #1 pin would be unfortunately small, but found
myself needing one for a reason not of my own making. Then you might have
addressed what seems to be the real issue here, which is that the
"professional" may have done something that you think is a poor practice,
which you seem to think is something that _I_ wanted to do. I appreciate
you're sharing your knowledge; it confirms that maybe I _do_ want to take
apart the lock he rekeyed to see what he did. But, I was hoping to avoid
that, since they do actually work (i.e. they are keeping a door locked, and
they open with both the master and the change key), and to take it apart,
they would no longer be keeping that door locked, and changing the keying is
a pain as well, since it involves coordinating getting new keys to people.
So, I thought that someone might have insight into what the issue was with
the lock, and whether the locksmith actually was a hack. I just didn't
realize I needed to be abused before I could get some advise.
Thanks for your help,
Philip

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
Hi -
I got a Schlage rekeying kit to put some of my locks on the master

system,

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
but something puzzles me. Why is there no #1 Master Pin size? I

understand

Post by Philip Weiss
that it would be tiny, but what do I do if I need one. At least I

assume

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
that I need one if the bitting on the change key and the master key are

one

Post by Philip Weiss
pin length different. The system _was_ set up by a good locksmith (at

least

Post by Philip Weiss
he has a good reputation and has done good work for me in the past), and

he

Post by Philip Weiss
put in a keying that had a 3 on the master and a 2 on the change key.

My

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
next step is to take one apart that he did to see what he has in there,

but

Post by Philip Weiss
before I messed up a lock that works, I thought someone might be able to
fill me in on the logic behind the missing length of master pin in my

kit.

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
Thanks,
Philip

Ok Philip, it is clear that you have a severely limited knowledge of

master

Post by Philip Weiss
keying and how locks in general work as far as mechanical tolerances...
Schlage uses .015" increments for its bitting depths, which means that

when

Post by Philip Weiss
you properly master key Schlage locks you would have to use a two-step
progression in your system design... This is because the difference

between

Post by Philip Weiss
the increment steps is small enough that given the average cylinder
tolerances keys off by only one increment in either direction (deeper or
shallower) than the key intended to operate the lock can and will with a
little bit of "jiggling", and that possibility gets easier as the locks
become older and worn with use... Someone else also posted that a master
pin with an increment of 1 (which would be .015") could easily find itself
jammed in between the plug and the shell, which could interfere with the
functioning of the lock...
Any properly designed master key system for Schlage locks would use a
two-step progression, meaning that depths for a given pinning chamber

would

Post by Philip Weiss
be two apart for different keys operating that lock... Odd/Even
(1,3,5,7,9... or 0,2,4,6,8...) While it is possible to make keys only

off

Post by Philip Weiss
by one increment in a pinning chamber work, your example was: "a 3 on the
master and 2 on the change key", it is done by altering the lock in a way
that weakens its overall security... It is most commonly accomplished by
pinning the lock to the shallower key bitting (in this case a 2) and then
chamfering the pin chamber in the plug (usually done by hand with a drill
bit) so that when the key with the deeper bitting is used the top pin will
ride up on the now wider pin chamber opening in the plug and allow the

lock

Post by Philip Weiss
to turn... I have seen this on countless locks that I have rekeyed...

It

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
is a very undesirable condition that makes it much more difficult to rekey
that lock into a properly designed system in the future without replacing
the cylinder in question... Even more so when this "technique" is used on
more than one chamber of the lock...
So the "missing" master pin in size number 1 doesn't exist because the
manufacturer knows the design tolerances of the lock, and in order to have
locks that are the most reliable and secure that they can possibly be...
They are be design not intended to have keys that are only off by one step
in the same pinning chamber... This is to prevent key interchange (safety
and security) and also to prevent the lock jamming because the very thin
size that a number one master pin would have to be could escape the

chamber

Post by Philip Weiss
easily and get caught between the plug and the shell (reliability)...
I hope that this helps you... Although I strongly caution you against
altering any of your locks in the method described above as it reduces the
security of the lock... I recommend that you look at your entire master
system: make a chart with all the key bittings listed, and a pattern of

some

Post by Philip Weiss
kind should become apparent... This will help you to determine if this
condition is widespread or only used in a few locks of your system...

If

Post by Philip Weiss
no

Post by Philip Weiss
pattern of any kind develops in your list (see above Odd/Even parity) then
you should seriously consider having a new master key system created by
another locksmith...
Evan the Maintenance Man...

[Philip Weiss]

I was going to make some guesses myself, but figured if they were true, he
doesn't need any more abuse.

But, he's quite willing to give the good with the bad, i.e. he is not
ungenerous with his time and adviceand knowledge, so I'm willing to cut him
some slack. He is, however, prone to seeing things in black and white, I
think, so it's nice to get the input of some of the rest of you to see what
the range of opinion might be. If I only listened to him, I might have to
go get a gun and shoot the poor guy who set up my locks for me; call it a
preemptive strike.

Philip

Post by Bob DeWeese, CML
I think Evan just has some bad days sometimes. I thought he was a little
out of line, too. Don't know why.
Most of the regulars here treat him quite civilly and he has, on a few
occasions, been quite (let's see -what's a good word) arrogant(?) to some of
them (myself included). I have my suspicions as to why, but I'll keep them
to myself.
Bobby
--
Bob DeWeese, CML
www.bearlock.com
www.edgemerebiblechurch.org
Bear Lock & Security Service, Inc - A full service locksmith company
specializing in professional, cost effective solutions to your
Commercial, Residential, Safe, and Automotive Security Problems.
<>< Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may
lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares
for you. 1 Peter 5:6-7

Post by Philip Weiss
Actually, I think I have a pretty good idea of how master keying works,

and

Post by Philip Weiss
how locks in general work, and I understand mechanical tolerances quite
well. I think maybe you have a fairly poor ability to read past the first
couple of lines. Then you might have seen that I implied almost

explicitly

Post by Philip Weiss
that I understood that a #1 pin would be unfortunately small, but found
myself needing one for a reason not of my own making. Then you might have
addressed what seems to be the real issue here, which is that the
"professional" may have done something that you think is a poor practice,
which you seem to think is something that _I_ wanted to do. I appreciate
you're sharing your knowledge; it confirms that maybe I _do_ want to take
apart the lock he rekeyed to see what he did. But, I was hoping to avoid
that, since they do actually work (i.e. they are keeping a door locked,

and

Post by Philip Weiss
they open with both the master and the change key), and to take it apart,
they would no longer be keeping that door locked, and changing the

keying

Post by Bob DeWeese, CML
is

Post by Philip Weiss
a pain as well, since it involves coordinating getting new keys to people.
So, I thought that someone might have insight into what the issue was with
the lock, and whether the locksmith actually was a hack. I just didn't
realize I needed to be abused before I could get some advise.
Thanks for your help,
Philip

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
Hi -
I got a Schlage rekeying kit to put some of my locks on the master

system,

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
but something puzzles me. Why is there no #1 Master Pin size? I

understand

Post by Philip Weiss
that it would be tiny, but what do I do if I need one. At least I

assume

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
that I need one if the bitting on the change key and the master key

are

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
one

Post by Philip Weiss
pin length different. The system _was_ set up by a good locksmith (at

least

Post by Philip Weiss
he has a good reputation and has done good work for me in the past),

and

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
he

Post by Philip Weiss
put in a keying that had a 3 on the master and a 2 on the change key.

My

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
next step is to take one apart that he did to see what he has in

there,

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
but

Post by Philip Weiss
before I messed up a lock that works, I thought someone might be

able

Post by Bob DeWeese, CML
to

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
fill me in on the logic behind the missing length of master pin in my

kit.

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
Thanks,
Philip

Ok Philip, it is clear that you have a severely limited knowledge of

master

Post by Philip Weiss
keying and how locks in general work as far as mechanical

tolerances...

Post by Bob DeWeese, CML

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
Schlage uses .015" increments for its bitting depths, which means that

when

Post by Philip Weiss
you properly master key Schlage locks you would have to use a two-step
progression in your system design... This is because the difference

between

Post by Philip Weiss
the increment steps is small enough that given the average cylinder
tolerances keys off by only one increment in either direction (deeper or
shallower) than the key intended to operate the lock can and will with a
little bit of "jiggling", and that possibility gets easier as the locks
become older and worn with use... Someone else also posted that a

master

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
pin with an increment of 1 (which would be .015") could easily find

itself

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
jammed in between the plug and the shell, which could interfere with the
functioning of the lock...
Any properly designed master key system for Schlage locks would use a
two-step progression, meaning that depths for a given pinning chamber

would

Post by Philip Weiss
be two apart for different keys operating that lock... Odd/Even
(1,3,5,7,9... or 0,2,4,6,8...) While it is possible to make keys only

off

Post by Philip Weiss
by one increment in a pinning chamber work, your example was: "a 3 on

the

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
master and 2 on the change key", it is done by altering the lock in a

way

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
that weakens its overall security... It is most commonly accomplished

by

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
pinning the lock to the shallower key bitting (in this case a 2) and

then

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
chamfering the pin chamber in the plug (usually done by hand with a

drill

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
bit) so that when the key with the deeper bitting is used the top pin

will

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
ride up on the now wider pin chamber opening in the plug and allow the

lock

Post by Philip Weiss
to turn... I have seen this on countless locks that I have rekeyed...

It

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
is a very undesirable condition that makes it much more difficult to

rekey

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
that lock into a properly designed system in the future without

replacing

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
the cylinder in question... Even more so when this "technique" is

used

Post by Bob DeWeese, CML
on

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
more than one chamber of the lock...
So the "missing" master pin in size number 1 doesn't exist because the
manufacturer knows the design tolerances of the lock, and in order to

have

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
locks that are the most reliable and secure that they can possibly be...
They are be design not intended to have keys that are only off by one

step

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
in the same pinning chamber... This is to prevent key interchange

(safety

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
and security) and also to prevent the lock jamming because the very thin
size that a number one master pin would have to be could escape the

chamber

Post by Philip Weiss
easily and get caught between the plug and the shell (reliability)...
I hope that this helps you... Although I strongly caution you against
altering any of your locks in the method described above as it reduces

the

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
security of the lock... I recommend that you look at your entire master
system: make a chart with all the key bittings listed, and a pattern of

some

Post by Philip Weiss
kind should become apparent... This will help you to determine if this
condition is widespread or only used in a few locks of your system...

If

Post by Philip Weiss
no

Post by Philip Weiss
pattern of any kind develops in your list (see above Odd/Even parity)

then

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
you should seriously consider having a new master key system created by
another locksmith...
Evan the Maintenance Man...

[Roger Shoaf]

Post by Philip Weiss
Actually, I think I have a pretty good idea of how master keying works, and
how locks in general work, and I understand mechanical tolerances quite
well. I think maybe you have a fairly poor ability to read past the first
couple of lines. Then you might have seen that I implied almost explicitly
that I understood that a #1 pin would be unfortunately small, but found
myself needing one for a reason not of my own making.

Using a #1 master pin on a Schlage would be flat out wrong. If someone else
insists that you do it you would be better off just removing that pin stack.
But if you do that, it would be with the knowledge that you are severly
reducing the security of the lock.



Then you might have

Post by Philip Weiss
addressed what seems to be the real issue here, which is that the
"professional" may have done something that you think is a poor practice,
which you seem to think is something that _I_ wanted to do. I appreciate
you're sharing your knowledge; it confirms that maybe I _do_ want to take
apart the lock he rekeyed to see what he did. But, I was hoping to avoid
that, since they do actually work (i.e. they are keeping a door locked, and
they open with both the master and the change key), and to take it apart,
they would no longer be keeping that door locked, and changing the keying is
a pain as well, since it involves coordinating getting new keys to people.
So, I thought that someone might have insight into what the issue was with
the lock, and whether the locksmith actually was a hack. I just didn't
realize I needed to be abused before I could get some advise.
Thanks for your help,
Philip

[JOCK tec]

Post by Roger Shoaf
If someone else

insists that you do it you would be better off just removing that pin
stack.<<<<

If you must use a number 1master chip, dont, and instead of a flat driver, use
a # 4 bottom pin- point down, this way it will still turn with the # 2 or # 3
cut. .(due to the radius'd tip) .. better than NOTHING in that chamber

[Billy B. Edwards Jr.]

Post by Roger Shoaf

Post by Roger Shoaf
If someone else

insists that you do it you would be better off just removing that pin
stack.<<<<
If you must use a number 1master chip, dont, and instead of a flat driver, use
a # 4 bottom pin- point down, this way it will still turn with the # 2 or # 3
cut. .(due to the radius'd tip) .. better than NOTHING in that chamber

That is really bad advice. Not only will it operate with the #2 and #3
cuts if he does that, but also with a #4, #5 and probably a #6. Failure
to mention that will badly mislead anyone into thinking it is an
acceptable practice that would only let one other key operate. It just
isn't so.
BBE

[Bob DeWeese, CML]

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.
That is really bad advice.

But you gotta admit: It does beat leaving the chamber empty. Not by much,
but it does beat it.

Not that I'm at all trying to argue the point with you of all people, Billy.
You've probably _forgotten_ more about masterkeying than most (if not all of
us here and most people industry wide) will know in a lifetime.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if _you_ never put a rounded top pin in
a chamber . ( My money's on "anal retentive".) <<<Professional compliment


:)

Bobby

--
Bob DeWeese, CML
***@spaammbearlock.com (remove"no spaamm")
www.bearlock.com
www.edgemerebiblechurch.org

Bear Lock & Security Service, Inc - A full service locksmith company
specializing in professional, cost effective solutions to your
Commercial, Residential, Safe, and Automotive Security Problems.

<>< Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may
lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares
for you. 1 Peter 5:6-7

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.

Post by Roger Shoaf

Post by Roger Shoaf
If someone else

insists that you do it you would be better off just removing that pin
stack.<<<<
If you must use a number 1master chip, dont, and instead of a flat driver, use
a # 4 bottom pin- point down, this way it will still turn with the # 2 or # 3
cut. .(due to the radius'd tip) .. better than NOTHING in that chamber

Not only will it operate with the #2 and #3

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.
cuts if he does that, but also with a #4, #5 and probably a #6. Failure
to mention that will badly mislead anyone into thinking it is an
acceptable practice that would only let one other key operate. It just
isn't so.
BBE

[Roger Shoaf]

Post by Bob DeWeese, CML

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.
That is really bad advice.

But you gotta admit: It does beat leaving the chamber empty. Not by much,
but it does beat it.

Not necessarily, the upside down pin as a driver will cause an inordinate
amount of wear on the plug.

[Henry E Schaffer]

Post by Roger Shoaf

Post by Bob DeWeese, CML

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.
That is really bad advice.

But you gotta admit: It does beat leaving the chamber empty. Not by
much, but it does beat it.

Not necessarily, the upside down pin as a driver will cause an inordinate
amount of wear on the plug.

Using a bottom pin (not upside down) as a top pin does mean its
bearing surface on the plug is less than with a normal (flattish
bottomed) top pin. But it is only pushed down by its own small weight
and the small spring - so will it wear the plug enough to worry about?

[Roger Shoaf]

Post by Henry E Schaffer
Using a bottom pin (not upside down) as a top pin does mean its
bearing surface on the plug is less than with a normal (flattish
bottomed) top pin. But it is only pushed down by its own small weight
and the small spring - so will it wear the plug enough to worry about?
--
--henry schaffer
hes _AT_ ncsu _DOT_ edu

I have seen plugs worn to snot by consistent use of keys cut too deep. Even
a small amount of pressure applied repeatedly will cause mischief.

[Key']

Post by Henry E Schaffer
Using a bottom pin (not upside down) as a top pin does

mean its

Post by Henry E Schaffer
bearing surface on the plug is less than with a normal

(flattish

Post by Henry E Schaffer
bottomed) top pin. But it is only pushed down by its

own small weight

Post by Henry E Schaffer
and the small spring - so will it wear the plug enough

to worry about?

Post by Henry E Schaffer
--
--henry schaffer
hes _AT_ ncsu _DOT_ edu

over time, the pointed pin will wear a groove into the plug.
especially if the plug is a softer metal (like pot-metal).
it will also make that particular pin chamber easier to
pick.
---
"Key"

[JOCK tec]

it was mentioned by me to use the bottom pin, point down ONLY in lew of using
NOTHING in that chamber.

SOMETHING is better than NOTHING.


CANT this just die???

[Henry E Schaffer]

Post by Key'

Post by Henry E Schaffer
Using a bottom pin (not upside down) as a top pin does mean its
bearing surface on the plug is less than with a normal (flattish
bottomed) top pin. But it is only pushed down by its own small weight
and the small spring - so will it wear the plug enough to worry about?

over time, the pointed pin will wear a groove into the plug.
especially if the plug is a softer metal (like pot-metal).

Most "pointed" pins aren't real "pointy" and they are smooth - and the
force is only minimal. With no lubrication and heavy use I can see that
it can wear a groove. But with even minimal lubrication in residential
use - wouldn't the "groove" be more of a "mark" than a deep groove?

Post by Key'
it will also make that particular pin chamber easier to
pick.

Agreed.

[Putyourspamhere]

Subject: Re: master keying schlage locks - why no #1 master pin?
Date: 5/29/04 2:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time

Post by Key'

Post by Henry E Schaffer
Using a bottom pin (not upside down) as a top pin does mean its
bearing surface on the plug is less than with a normal (flattish
bottomed) top pin. But it is only pushed down by its own small weight
and the small spring - so will it wear the plug enough to worry about?

over time, the pointed pin will wear a groove into the plug.
especially if the plug is a softer metal (like pot-metal).

Most "pointed" pins aren't real "pointy" and they are smooth - and the
force is only minimal. With no lubrication and heavy use I can see that
it can wear a groove. But with even minimal lubrication in residential
use - wouldn't the "groove" be more of a "mark" than a deep groove?

Post by Key'
it will also make that particular pin chamber easier to
pick.

Agreed.
--
--henry schaffer
hes _AT_ ncsu _DOT_ edu

How pointy depends on the lock. As to grove or mark it depends on your
definition. It will wear deep enough you can easily feel it by dragging your
fingernail across it. As somebody already pointed out pot metal wears faster
and many low end plugs are made of it. Also most locks don't have much if any
lubrication.

[Henry E Schaffer]

Post by Roger Shoaf

Post by Henry E Schaffer
Using a bottom pin (not upside down) as a top pin does mean its
bearing surface on the plug is less than with a normal (flattish
bottomed) top pin. But it is only pushed down by its own small weight
and the small spring - so will it wear the plug enough to worry about?

I have seen plugs worn to snot by consistent use of keys cut too deep. Even
a small amount of pressure applied repeatedly will cause mischief.

A key cut just a bit too deep, for one pin stack, so that it won't
turn easily, but will turn with extra torque will cause the driver/top
pin to gouge out the top of the lower pin chamber (the part in the plug)
as the top pin is forced upwards. This will produce a ramp in the plug
- effectively thickening the shear line.

But once the top pin is up on the outside of the plug - the wear
should be no longer any greater than it is with a properly cut key.

So are you describing wear in the chamber area? If not, I'm not sure
what would be the cause.

The complementary case is of a key cut just a bit too high, for one pin
stack, ... The plug will turn with a bit extra torque - but the bottom
pin will project and can easily score the inside of the cylinder shell.
In this case there is a lot more force involved than just that of the
spring.

[JOCK tec]

i have to disagree- that it will let that many pass- but YOU are the
professional.

AND what i was saying - rather than leave the chamber empty as it was said.

[Bob DeWeese, CML]

Post by JOCK tec
If you must use a number 1master chip, dont, and instead of a flat driver, use
a # 4 bottom pin- point down, this way it will still turn with the # 2 or # 3
cut. .(due to the radius'd tip) .. better than NOTHING in that chamber

Jock,

You (and I) are probably going to get flamed for this, but I agree with you.
Having a bottom pin and a rounded top pin is better than no pin stack at
all. And in the _real_ world, sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. It's
not something I would ever do ***under normal conditions*** but I have on
rare occasions used a rounded top pin in a chamber for one reason or
another. I don't like to. In fact I even put a brown paper bag over my
head while doing it. ;) But I _have_ done it. Anyone in this business for
any length of time who says he hasn't, is either a liar, a masochist, or
extremely anal retentive. :).

Bobby [Putting on asbestos suit]

--
Bob DeWeese, CML
***@spaammbearlock.com (remove"no spaamm")
www.bearlock.com
www.edgemerebiblechurch.org

Bear Lock & Security Service, Inc - A full service locksmith company
specializing in professional, cost effective solutions to your
Commercial, Residential, Safe, and Automotive Security Problems.

<>< Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may
lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares
for you. 1 Peter 5:6-7

[--Shiva--]

Post by Bob DeWeese, CML
Jock,
You (and I) are probably going to get flamed for this, but I agree with you.
Having a bottom pin and a rounded top pin is better than no pin stack at
all. And in the _real_ world, sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. It's
not something I would ever do ***under normal conditions*** but I have on
rare occasions used a rounded top pin in a chamber for one reason or
another. I don't like to. In fact I even put a brown paper bag over my
head while doing it. ;) But I _have_ done it. Anyone in this business for
any length of time who says he hasn't, is either a liar, a masochist, or
extremely anal retentive. :).
Bobby [Putting on asbestos suit]

lolol... there is a OLD lock shop, sttarted business in 1949 in
fact...
I took apart a door lock they had put in and MK'd once, it had
almost dropped the cylinder out, but they didnt pull the key, and
drop the pins..

I took it on apart, with a follower and was AMAZED to see that
ALLL the top pins were # 3 or 4's turned POINT DOWN, so that
'anything close' would work.
--Shiva--

[Steve Paris]

Post by Bob DeWeese, CML
You (and I) are probably going to get flamed for this, but I agree with you.
Having a bottom pin and a rounded top pin is better than no pin stack at
all. And in the _real_ world, sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

In situations like this I use a 1/2 inch countersink drill bit which I have
mounted into a chisel handle, to gently put a 'bevel' or slight countersunk
edging on the offending pin hole in the plug. Lots of manufactures
(Gainsborough Locks spring to mind) countersink the tops of all pin holes in
their plugs in their masterkey systems. It just deletes the need for #1
pins, and all the stacks roll over smoothly. It also helps greatly if the
cut key is slightly worn or has been cut on a machine that is out a few
thou.

--
Steve Paris L/S
Tropical Cairns Nth Queensland
Australia.

[Billy B. Edwards Jr.]

Post by Philip Weiss
Actually, I think I have a pretty good idea of how master keying works, and
how locks in general work, and I understand mechanical tolerances quite
well. I think maybe you have a fairly poor ability to read past the first
couple of lines. Then you might have seen that I implied almost explicitly
that I understood that a #1 pin would be unfortunately small, but found
myself needing one for a reason not of my own making. Then you might have
addressed what seems to be the real issue here, which is that the
"professional" may have done something that you think is a poor practice,
which you seem to think is something that _I_ wanted to do. I appreciate
you're sharing your knowledge; it confirms that maybe I _do_ want to take
apart the lock he rekeyed to see what he did. But, I was hoping to avoid
that, since they do actually work (i.e. they are keeping a door locked, and
they open with both the master and the change key), and to take it apart,
they would no longer be keeping that door locked, and changing the keying is
a pain as well, since it involves coordinating getting new keys to people.
So, I thought that someone might have insight into what the issue was with
the lock, and whether the locksmith actually was a hack. I just didn't
realize I needed to be abused before I could get some advise.

Actually, from the content of your post, and the original questions you
asked, it is painfully obvious to anyone who does know about master
keying that the only thing you know about it is how to drop pins into a
cylinder. There is quite a bit more to it than pinning technique.

With that in mind Evan gave you an in depth explanation of why a number
1 master pin should not be used. He did this in a matter of fact way to
ensure that you would understand. He was obviously under the impression
that you came here looking for accurate advice and felt it wasn't his
job to sugar coat that advice.

Whoever designed your system so that it requires a number 1 master pin
in it did not design the system correctly. That number 1 master pin
wasn't in your kit because the Schlage Lock Co. has for many years
advised against ever using a number 1 master pin.

You asked for advice and now you complain because you got it! You think
his response constitutes abuse? You should look at the archives for
this group, then you will understand what abuse really is.
BBE.

[Philip Weiss]

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.
You asked for advice and now you complain because you got it! You think
his response constitutes abuse? You should look at the archives for
this group, then you will understand what abuse really is.
BBE.

No, I didn't complain because I got advice. Actually, I thanked him for his
advice. I complained because I thought he was rude. I didn't think it was
necessary, and I was taught to not tolerate rudeness.

Which of these do you believe in:
1) If someone does something nice for you, they should also do something not
nice just to even it out (e.g. you should kick an old lady after you help
her across the street)
2) Because there is a continuum of bad things in this world, we should do
some of the less bad things to people, just to make them feel better that
they aren't having the really bad things done to them (again, you could kick
the old lady so she realizes how lucky she was not to be run over)?

[Me]

On Fri, 21 May 2004 18:31:57 -0400, "Philip Weiss"

Post by Philip Weiss
Hi -
I got a Schlage rekeying kit to put some of my locks on the master system,
but something puzzles me. Why is there no #1 Master Pin size? I understand
that it would be tiny, but what do I do if I need one. At least I assume
that I need one if the bitting on the change key and the master key are one
pin length different. The system _was_ set up by a good locksmith (at least
he has a good reputation and has done good work for me in the past), and he
put in a keying that had a 3 on the master and a 2 on the change key. My
next step is to take one apart that he did to see what he has in there, but
before I messed up a lock that works, I thought someone might be able to
fill me in on the logic behind the missing length of master pin in my kit.
Thanks,
Philip

Others have explained why, I'll try to explain what might have happened.

Although it's bad practice for a #1 master pin to be used, I can see it
being used, especially when a lock has to be replaced in a master keyed
system and the existing keys need to work the lock. He can only work with
what was given him... keys that are worn, or badly cut copies made by
hardware stores. Those out-of-spec. keys could be off by a 1/2 cut either
way.

The wear in the old cylinder allowed those keys to work reasonably well. A
NEW cylinder has no wear, so the same pin/chip setup will cause those keys
to stick badly, or not work at all.

To compensate, a #1 chip could be necessary for a new lock to work.

I would just keep watch on that lock for problems in the future. (For
reasons already mentioned in other posts)

Taking it apart could cause you problems: You need to know how many, and in
what order, the pins and chips are located in each chamber of the stack.
If you get it wrong, or one pin/chip falls out while taking it apart,
nothing will work right. Trust me on this, it's a royal PIA taking apart a
MK'd cylinder.

[JOCK tec]

it is ???

[Steve]

One point I have not seen discussed here that may explain the need for a #1
master is Mason Keying, making a lock work for many many exhisting keys
without the need for making and re-distributing new keys. I used to live in
a builing that used AR1 keys and each apt had its own key, but the front
door was mason keyed to allow each key to work (and yes, there were empty
stacks as well - GROAN..). Granted, if it was set up properly, they would
have followed the 2-step progression and used #2 masters in the stack.

Steve

Post by Philip Weiss
Hi -
I got a Schlage rekeying kit to put some of my locks on the master system,
but something puzzles me. Why is there no #1 Master Pin size? I understand
that it would be tiny, but what do I do if I need one. At least I assume
that I need one if the bitting on the change key and the master key are one
pin length different. The system _was_ set up by a good locksmith (at least
he has a good reputation and has done good work for me in the past), and he
put in a keying that had a 3 on the master and a 2 on the change key. My
next step is to take one apart that he did to see what he has in there, but
before I messed up a lock that works, I thought someone might be able to
fill me in on the logic behind the missing length of master pin in my kit.
Thanks,
Philip

[Peter]

Post by Steve
One point I have not seen discussed here that may explain the need for a #1
master is Mason Keying, making a lock work for many many exhisting keys
without the need for making and re-distributing new keys. I used to live in
a builing that used AR1 keys and each apt had its own key, but the front
door was mason keyed to allow each key to work (and yes, there were empty
stacks as well - GROAN..). Granted, if it was set up properly, they would
have followed the 2-step progression and used #2 masters in the stack.

Filling up a Maison keyer cylinder with #1 spacers is asking for
trouble. This is especially as such cylinders may be used much more
frequently than normal.

Some years ago I stayed at a university hall. One lunchtime I went
out by the back gate and wondered if I could return the same way. One
glance at the worn keyway indicated the cylinder was Maison keyed,
quickly confirmed when my room key fitted it.

[Evan]

Post by Peter
Filling up a Maison keyer cylinder with #1 spacers is asking for
trouble. This is especially as such cylinders may be used much more
frequently than normal.
Some years ago I stayed at a university hall. One lunchtime I went
out by the back gate and wondered if I could return the same way. One
glance at the worn keyway indicated the cylinder was Maison keyed,
quickly confirmed when my room key fitted it.

Looking at a lock and seeing a worn keyway is not an exclusive indicator of
a maison keyed cylinder... In fact it only tells you that the lock is used
very frequently... I have seen several high traffic cylinders that show
signs of such wear in the keyway which are keyed to only one key... To
maintain the highest possible security any worn cylinders should be
replaced...

Commonly used locks in college settings (such as entrances that are still
keyed, and keys are distributed for them) are often maison keyed to reduce
costs... Imagine if you had to produce another key (times however many
students occupy the residence hall, then multiply that for each such
building on the campus) for such doors...

Evan the Maintenance Man

[Evan]

To: Philip Weiss:

It has been brought to my attention (privately by e-mail) that while my
posts in this thread were completely factual and very sound advice that I
may have been a bit too blunt...

I apologize for my "tone", but this issue is something that should be taken
VERY seriously... The security of your buildings and the safety of its
occupants depend on the door locks being properly assembled and keyed...

I guess that I am too serious about this stuff sometimes, but security and
safety are not things to be taken lighty... Trust me when I say this, if
you thought what I said was abuse, it was a warm breeze compared to some of
the fire storms of flaming that pop up here from time to time...

Evan teh Maintenance Man

[Philip Weiss]

Apology gladly accepted. And thanks again for your bountiful advice and
time.

Philip

Post by Evan
It has been brought to my attention (privately by e-mail) that while my
posts in this thread were completely factual and very sound advice that I
may have been a bit too blunt...
I apologize for my "tone", but this issue is something that should be taken
VERY seriously... The security of your buildings and the safety of its
occupants depend on the door locks being properly assembled and keyed...
I guess that I am too serious about this stuff sometimes, but security and
safety are not things to be taken lighty... Trust me when I say this, if
you thought what I said was abuse, it was a warm breeze compared to some of
the fire storms of flaming that pop up here from time to time...
Evan teh Maintenance Man

[willnevergoaway]

Post by Evan
It has been brought to my attention (privately by e-mail) that while my
posts in this thread were completely factual and very sound advice that I
may have been a bit too blunt...
I apologize for my "tone", but this issue is something that should be taken
VERY seriously... The security of your buildings and the safety of its
occupants depend on the door locks being properly assembled and keyed...
I guess that I am too serious about this stuff sometimes, but security and
safety are not things to be taken lighty... Trust me when I say this, if
you thought what I said was abuse, it was a warm breeze compared to some of
the fire storms of flaming that pop up here from time to time...
Evan teh Maintenance Man

Youre a fucking idiot. Regular master keyed locks dont have any
fucking security. They can be raked open in about 30 seconds by even a
dimwit like you. You might as well not even bother pinning the fucking
things.

[Key']

"willnevergoaway" <***@hotmail.com> forged in
message
---snip the forged message to report---

again wasn't me
it was (NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.154.36.6)

[Henry E Schaffer]

...
Youre a xxxxing idiot. Regular master keyed locks dont have any
xxxxing security. They can be raked open in about 30 seconds by even a
dimwit like you. You might as well not even bother pinning the xxxxing
things.

Apparently you know very little about locksmithing, and think that
substituting strong language will cover up this lack.

We all agree that MK decreases the security of a lock. Life is all
about tradeoffs, and trading some security for some convenience is often
reasonable.

But now you tell us that putting one master pin in a lock is
equivalent to leaving out all the pins! That confirms my estimate of
your lack of knowledge. (Or maybe it is low intelligence?)

[Philip Weiss]

Let me see if I can summarize and reclarify (since it's been hard to keep
track of all the diverging threads and such)

1) The locksmith chose the wrong keys (in case anyone forgot, I am was not
trying to rekey a lock, just match one that a locksmith keyed). To clarify,
I brought him the old lock, wanted it rekeyed, and put on a master system at
the same time. It was a brand new keying. What does he do, pull a pair of
precut keys off the shelf, and repin the lock? And the problem as I
understand it is that he didn't check that the keys wouldn't have bittings
w/in 1 pin of the master? Should I shoot him, bomb his store, go ask him if
he's going senile, or just not use him anymore? (I think Evan would say
"all four") It really is supposed to be the best shop around, and they have
stuff you can't get anywhere else, so it would be a shame to eliminate them.

2) Now, to key the lock with these poorly chosen keys, he had a few options
as far as I can glean from the posts:
a - chamfer
b - find/make a #1 pin (saw some mentions of "chips"?)
c - leave out the stack
d - use a bottom pin for a driver to allow some "slop"
e - did I miss anything?

OK, I promise, I will go get the damn thing when I can and take it apart and
see which it was (should we take bets?), since I don't think at this point
that I could go to my grave not knowing the answer.

Thanks again to all for their responses (especially those who didn't feel
the need to belittle me), it's been fun, and educational as well.

Post by Philip Weiss
Hi -
I got a Schlage rekeying kit to put some of my locks on the master system,
but something puzzles me. Why is there no #1 Master Pin size? I understand
that it would be tiny, but what do I do if I need one. At least I assume
that I need one if the bitting on the change key and the master key are one
pin length different. The system _was_ set up by a good locksmith (at least
he has a good reputation and has done good work for me in the past), and he
put in a keying that had a 3 on the master and a 2 on the change key. My
next step is to take one apart that he did to see what he has in there, but
before I messed up a lock that works, I thought someone might be able to
fill me in on the logic behind the missing length of master pin in my kit.
Thanks,
Philip

[Evan]

Post by Philip Weiss
Let me see if I can summarize and reclarify (since it's been hard to keep
track of all the diverging threads and such)
1) The locksmith chose the wrong keys (in case anyone forgot, I am was not
trying to rekey a lock, just match one that a locksmith keyed). To clarify,
I brought him the old lock, wanted it rekeyed, and put on a master system at
the same time. It was a brand new keying. What does he do, pull a pair of
precut keys off the shelf, and repin the lock? And the problem as I
understand it is that he didn't check that the keys wouldn't have bittings
w/in 1 pin of the master? Should I shoot him, bomb his store, go ask him if
he's going senile, or just not use him anymore? (I think Evan would say
"all four") It really is supposed to be the best shop around, and they have
stuff you can't get anywhere else, so it would be a shame to eliminate them.
2) Now, to key the lock with these poorly chosen keys, he had a few options
a - chamfer
b - find/make a #1 pin (saw some mentions of "chips"?)
c - leave out the stack
d - use a bottom pin for a driver to allow some "slop"
e - did I miss anything?
OK, I promise, I will go get the damn thing when I can and take it apart and
see which it was (should we take bets?), since I don't think at this point
that I could go to my grave not knowing the answer.
Thanks again to all for their responses (especially those who didn't feel
the need to belittle me), it's been fun, and educational as well.

Out of your list I would choose option "d" (if you were going to make up
another lock to work with teh same keys), as it is the least destructive to
the lock and can be completely reversed... Chamfering isn't, so I would
never recommend anyone do it... Leaving an empty pinning chamber allows an
even greater assortment of keys to function...

You can obtain .015" master pins they are made by Lab Pins and are included
as a part of the 5/1000 Universal Pin Kit (and available by the gross)...
However using a pin that thin could jam the lock as I and others have
explained... This problem would be noticed as a binding/jamming while
turning (or attempting to turn) the cylinder...

As far as your locksmith is concerned, the next time he master keys any
locks for you just make sure you have him chart out the system in advance on
paper... It sounds to me like you figured out how he master keyed your
lock, just had a pair of keys and your 'master' and made it work... You
don't have to end your business with this locksmith, as he does have other
products you need available... Just pay closer attention to any locks you
have keyed up there...

Any master key system should have a chart or register to record which
bittings are already in use to ensure that they are not repeated anyplace
else in the system... Which key bitting combinations you have used already
is something any locksmith will want to know before doing any keying work
with your locks... That chart is something that you should keep, as you can
have many different locksmiths work with your locks over time and make
changes to it/add to it as needed...

Evan the Maintenance Man

[Philip Weiss]

Thanks much.

Philip

Post by Philip Weiss

Post by Philip Weiss
Let me see if I can summarize and reclarify (since it's been hard to keep
track of all the diverging threads and such)
1) The locksmith chose the wrong keys (in case anyone forgot, I am was not
trying to rekey a lock, just match one that a locksmith keyed). To

clarify,

Post by Philip Weiss
I brought him the old lock, wanted it rekeyed, and put on a master

system

Post by Philip Weiss
at

Post by Philip Weiss
the same time. It was a brand new keying. What does he do, pull a pair

of

Post by Philip Weiss
precut keys off the shelf, and repin the lock? And the problem as I
understand it is that he didn't check that the keys wouldn't have bittings
w/in 1 pin of the master? Should I shoot him, bomb his store, go ask

him

Post by Philip Weiss
if

Post by Philip Weiss
he's going senile, or just not use him anymore? (I think Evan would say
"all four") It really is supposed to be the best shop around, and they

have

Post by Philip Weiss
stuff you can't get anywhere else, so it would be a shame to eliminate

them.

Post by Philip Weiss
2) Now, to key the lock with these poorly chosen keys, he had a few

options

Post by Philip Weiss
a - chamfer
b - find/make a #1 pin (saw some mentions of "chips"?)
c - leave out the stack
d - use a bottom pin for a driver to allow some "slop"
e - did I miss anything?
OK, I promise, I will go get the damn thing when I can and take it apart

and

Post by Philip Weiss
see which it was (should we take bets?), since I don't think at this point
that I could go to my grave not knowing the answer.
Thanks again to all for their responses (especially those who didn't feel
the need to belittle me), it's been fun, and educational as well.

Out of your list I would choose option "d" (if you were going to make up
another lock to work with teh same keys), as it is the least destructive to
the lock and can be completely reversed... Chamfering isn't, so I would
never recommend anyone do it... Leaving an empty pinning chamber allows an
even greater assortment of keys to function...
You can obtain .015" master pins they are made by Lab Pins and are included
as a part of the 5/1000 Universal Pin Kit (and available by the gross)...
However using a pin that thin could jam the lock as I and others have
explained... This problem would be noticed as a binding/jamming while
turning (or attempting to turn) the cylinder...
As far as your locksmith is concerned, the next time he master keys any
locks for you just make sure you have him chart out the system in advance on
paper... It sounds to me like you figured out how he master keyed your
lock, just had a pair of keys and your 'master' and made it work... You
don't have to end your business with this locksmith, as he does have other
products you need available... Just pay closer attention to any locks you
have keyed up there...
Any master key system should have a chart or register to record which
bittings are already in use to ensure that they are not repeated anyplace
else in the system... Which key bitting combinations you have used already
is something any locksmith will want to know before doing any keying work
with your locks... That chart is something that you should keep, as you can
have many different locksmiths work with your locks over time and make
changes to it/add to it as needed...
Evan the Maintenance Man

[Steve Paris]

Post by Evan
Any master key system should have a chart or register to record which
bittings are already in use to ensure that they are not repeated anyplace
else in the system... Which key bitting combinations you have used already
is something any locksmith will want to know before doing any keying work
with your locks... That chart is something that you should keep, as you can
have many different locksmiths work with your locks over time and make
changes to it/add to it as needed...

Yep, good advise Phillip. Do you or the Locksmith you used have a copy of
the original M.K. system, or pinning and code chart ? if not, then all you
'WILL' end up with is what we call 'shoebox' master keying, or 'lucky dip'
keying using pre-cut keys and throwing in odd master pins to get the lock to
function on the M.K.

--
Steve Paris L/S
Tropical Cairns Nth Queensland
Australia.

[Bag Boy]

<snip>

Philip,

Even though it won't agree with the locksmiths here, you can file down
a #2 master pin. Commonly called butchering, I believe.

[Absinthe]

I guess I missed the beginning of the thread. But as I understand it, you
need to have some amount .035?(not sure about this exact number) or so worth
of pin in the chambers to actually keep them from turning and if a master
pin would not be thick enough to provide that then it would be no value and
possibly slip or jam between the plug and shell.

-- A.

Post by Bag Boy
<snip>
Philip,
Even though it won't agree with the locksmiths here, you can file down
a #2 master pin. Commonly called butchering, I believe.