Medeco drilling.

[Philippe]

Hi,

We've recently had a few robberies in my building. I had a Medeco lock
installed a few months before, so I thought I was safe, but a
policeman told us that even Medeco locks can be drilled (like the
other locks were).

Is this true ?

Thanks
Phil

[Peter]

Post by Philippe
Hi,
We've recently had a few robberies in my building. I had a Medeco lock
installed a few months before, so I thought I was safe, but a
policeman told us that even Medeco locks can be drilled (like the
other locks were).
Is this true ?

AFAIK with great difficulty - a 'Drermel' grinder is also needed.
Time required and noise made would be a stiff deterrent to this sort
of attack. The question arises of on how many occasions does a
burglar attack a cylinder with hardened steel inserts (such as Medeco)
etc. Probably very, very few.

[Stormin Mormon]

No.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Philippe" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
Hi,

Medeco locks can be drilled (like the
other locks were).

[Stormin Mormon]

I've drilled Medeco locks. They are a complete total PIA with the hardened
drill resistant inserts.

The answer to the officer's opinion "just like the others" is very
definitely false.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Philippe" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
Hi,

We've recently had a few robberies in my building. I had a Medeco lock
installed a few months before, so I thought I was safe, but a
policeman told us that even Medeco locks can be drilled (like the
other locks were).

Is this true ?

Thanks
Phil

[Putyourspamhere]

Post by Philippe
Hi,
We've recently had a few robberies in my building. I had a Medeco lock
installed a few months before, so I thought I was safe, but a
policeman told us that even Medeco locks can be drilled (like the
other locks were).
Is this true ?
Thanks
Phil

No. Medeco cannot be drilled efficiently in the same manner as a non drill
resistant pin tumbler lock.

[Fred Grouell]

Yes, very easy and under 5 minutes (depending on the lock type). I'm not
going to explain how here. Medeco originally advertised pick-proof locks,
after a $10,000 bounty was paid out for the feat they changed it to
pick-resistent. At one point lock picks were sold for MEDECO, however since
they employed parts that medeco had patented a recall was forced.Changes
were made in the lock to combat the use of the tool, however they have
reverted back to their original design. This tool did not work in all
models, as does drilling not work in all models. I would suggest that the
key control of the building be looked at as well as the hardware
installation. The best knob set can easily be defeated if improperly
installed. Call a reputable locksmith to examine the issue for an acurate
assesment.

Post by Philippe
Hi,
We've recently had a few robberies in my building. I had a Medeco lock
installed a few months before, so I thought I was safe, but a
policeman told us that even Medeco locks can be drilled (like the
other locks were).
Is this true ?
Thanks
Phil

[Peter]

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 23:06:32 -0500, "Fred Grouell"

Post by Fred Grouell
Yes, very easy and under 5 minutes (depending on the lock type). I'm not
going to explain how here. Medeco originally advertised pick-proof locks,
after a $10,000 bounty was paid out for the feat they changed it to
pick-resistent. At one point lock picks were sold for MEDECO, however since
they employed parts that medeco had patented a recall was forced.Changes
were made in the lock to combat the use of the tool, however they have
reverted back to their original design. This tool did not work in all
models, as does drilling not work in all models. I would suggest that the
key control of the building be looked at as well as the hardware
installation. The best knob set can easily be defeated if improperly
installed. Call a reputable locksmith to examine the issue for an acurate
assesment.

Interesting, there are two distinct designs of Medeco (two and a half
including Biaxial). It seems both designs have been picked, but only
by the most skilled people and not guaranteed to succeed every time.
Medeco should have learnt from Bramah and Chubb - Mr Hobbs picked
their supposedly pickproof locks, and these locks from 200 years ago
were pretty good, even when compared with today's standards (the
Bramah mechanism has essentially remained the same to the present
except for the addition of false notches as well as the first lock
that could be decently masterkeyed).

As for drilling - do all types have drill resistant inserts or some
less than others? Again a skilled person familiar with the design
could compromise them moderately quickly, but fortunately suck skilled
people can make a good living by legitimate means.

Three other points:
1. The Medeco was not drilled whereas other locks nearby were - it
was obviously a sound investment.

2. Key control did not seem to be an issue except possibly for the
building entrance, and even then someone could wrangle their way in
unless there is a full time concierge.

3. If you are worried about cylinders being drilled, go and buy a 'BS
3621' certified Chubb, ERA, or similar brand lever tumbler mortise
lock from a locksmith when visiting UK, New Zealand, Australia etc.
That will have the average USA crook confused.

[Evan]

Post by Peter
2. Key control did not seem to be an issue except possibly for the
building entrance, and even then someone could wrangle their way in
unless there is a full time concierge.

Obviously you have never observed the process of someone renting an
apartment and then illegally sub-letting it to someone else...

A SAVVY landlord would want key control on ALL of his locks, not just
the ones on the exterior doors... Control who can get copies of keys and
you have a higher likelihood of knowing exactly weho has access to your
property...

Evan,
~~formerly a maintenance man, now a college student

[Peter]

Post by Evan

Post by Peter
2. Key control did not seem to be an issue except possibly for the
building entrance, and even then someone could wrangle their way in
unless there is a full time concierge.

Obviously you have never observed the process of someone renting an
apartment and then illegally sub-letting it to someone else...
A SAVVY landlord would want key control on ALL of his locks, not just
the ones on the exterior doors... Control who can get copies of keys and
you have a higher likelihood of knowing exactly weho has access to your
property...

The tenant fitted his own Medeco in this instance. If this procedure
is standard for that building, the only key control (with respect to
tenants' areas) the landlord is responsible for is over the manager's
set of tenants' keys (assuming tenants are obliged to provide them).
If the cylinders on other tenancies were drilled, key control did not
seem to be an issue with respect to these doors.

[Billy B. Edwards Jr.]

Sorry Fred, but you have some misinformation in your post. First of
all, Medeco cylinders are UL 437 rated, look it up, you aren't drilling
them in 5 minutes unless you are using carbide bits.

Medeco original cylinders were always advertised as pick resistant and
the company advertised a $10,000.00 reward for anyone who could present
a system to pick them. The conditions of that challenge were that three
different brand new cylinders had to be defeated. No one was ever paid
the $10,000.00. One gentleman did manage to defeat one cylinder after
nearly 8 hours of picking and was paid $3,500.00. Later, when asked if
he was the guy who picked the Medeco cylinder he always responded "I
opened it on one occasion". After offering the reward for four years it
was withdrawn due to lack of interest. Nobody could do it and people
stopped trying.

The Lock Technology tool did not pick Medeco cylinders, it decoded the
combination so that a key could be made. The way they suggested making
the key from their 'build-a-key' kit was a patent infringement. It was
also a patent infringement to make a key from the decoded information
and it was on that basis that the suit was won. That same argument was
used to win cases against Star and Kis for making blanks.

Changes were made to the original product to defeat the Lock Technology
tool within 30 days. Since the suit was won, only 7 tools were ever
sold and they have all been accounted for, there is no need for the
added expense of one of the changes that was made to defeat the tool and
it has been discontinued, other changes are still in effect to this day.

Given the amount of incorrect technical information on the web today we
should all endeavor to post the real story when possible. The general
public has a very small understanding of the technical issues involved
with lock cylinders and we shouldn't add to their confusion by posting
erroneous information, especially information that implies that a
product isn't as good as it really is.
BBE.

Post by Fred Grouell
Yes, very easy and under 5 minutes (depending on the lock type). I'm not
going to explain how here. Medeco originally advertised pick-proof locks,
after a $10,000 bounty was paid out for the feat they changed it to
pick-resistent. At one point lock picks were sold for MEDECO, however since
they employed parts that medeco had patented a recall was forced.Changes
were made in the lock to combat the use of the tool, however they have
reverted back to their original design. This tool did not work in all
models, as does drilling not work in all models. I would suggest that the
key control of the building be looked at as well as the hardware
installation. The best knob set can easily be defeated if improperly
installed. Call a reputable locksmith to examine the issue for an acurate
assesment.

Post by Philippe
Hi,
We've recently had a few robberies in my building. I had a Medeco lock
installed a few months before, so I thought I was safe, but a
policeman told us that even Medeco locks can be drilled (like the
other locks were).
Is this true ?
Thanks
Phil

[--Shiva--]

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.
you aren't drilling
them in 5 minutes unless you are using carbide bits.

ehh, no offense, but I want to watch it doen THAT fast..
I had to do one, an suggested to the owner he take a 'hot knife'
to it, considering how much OTHER damage was going to have to be
brute force removed as well.
and this was not one of the better grade 'door type' cylinders.
--Shiva--

[Leon Rowell]

I did one on a gun safe once. I don't remember how long it took me but I
know it was at least a couple of hours.

Leon Rowell

Post by --Shiva--

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.
you aren't drilling
them in 5 minutes unless you are using carbide bits.

ehh, no offense, but I want to watch it doen THAT fast..
I had to do one, an suggested to the owner he take a 'hot knife'
to it, considering how much OTHER damage was going to have to be
brute force removed as well.
and this was not one of the better grade 'door type' cylinders.
--Shiva--

[--Shiva--]

Post by Leon Rowell
I did one on a gun safe once. I don't remember how long it took me but I
know it was at least a couple of hours.
Leon Rowell

yeah, thats what I was thinking as well

no '5 minute-grab a regular drill and get through one..unless
one had some VERY special bits..

--Shiva--

['Key]

Post by --Shiva--

Post by Leon Rowell
I did one on a gun safe once. I don't remember how long it
took me but I
know it was at least a couple of hours.
Leon Rowell

yeah, thats what I was thinking as well
no '5 minute-grab a regular drill and get through
one..unless
one had some VERY special bits..
--Shiva--

remember the first one that I ever ran across back in the
early 80's.
I didn't know it was pick and drill resistant.,
so I drilled it using many bits.
kinda like the first uchange I ever ran across.
tore it apart to rekey :-)

my2¢

[Stormin Mormon]

I got a lockout some years ago, a storage cabinet in the bedroom closet of
a house. Can't remember how long it took me, but I went through several
drill bits.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Leon Rowell" <***@netins.net> wrote in message news:cud6fd$59c$***@news.netins.net...
I did one on a gun safe once. I don't remember how long it took me but I
know it was at least a couple of hours.

Leon Rowell

Post by --Shiva--

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.
you aren't drilling
them in 5 minutes unless you are using carbide bits.

ehh, no offense, but I want to watch it doen THAT fast..
I had to do one, an suggested to the owner he take a 'hot knife'
to it, considering how much OTHER damage was going to have to be
brute force removed as well.
and this was not one of the better grade 'door type' cylinders.
--Shiva--

[d***@tanj.com]

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.
Sorry Fred, but you have some misinformation in your post. First of
all, Medeco cylinders are UL 437 rated, look it up, you aren't drilling
them in 5 minutes unless you are using carbide bits.

That's what I love about those standards. They preclude using commonly
available tools. If it can be drilled in 5 minutes using a carbide bit,
it can be drilled in 5 minutes.

I did not find the text of the UL437 standard, but if the security
planner expects the Medeco cylinders to be drill resistant and sets up
guard patrols based on a 30 minute interval, they could be suprised when
the lock is compromised in 5 minutes.

Doesn't it seem strange that the existance of a device that can decode
Medeco cylinders is discounted simply becasue it's illegal to sell them?
It's not illegal to make them, and one who makes and uses such a device
would not be prosecuted, they'd be sued.

Daniel

[Peter]

Post by d***@tanj.com

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.
Sorry Fred, but you have some misinformation in your post. First of
all, Medeco cylinders are UL 437 rated, look it up, you aren't drilling
them in 5 minutes unless you are using carbide bits.

That's what I love about those standards. They preclude using commonly
available tools. If it can be drilled in 5 minutes using a carbide bit,
it can be drilled in 5 minutes.

Presumably the standard is OK as far as the stakeholders - the
insurance industry - is concerned. The objective is to minimise
intrusions at a reasonable cost.

Bear in mind too that the door could be forced in any case.

[Billy B. Edwards Jr.]

Post by d***@tanj.com
That's what I love about those standards. They preclude using commonly
available tools. If it can be drilled in 5 minutes using a carbide bit,
it can be drilled in 5 minutes.

From that comment we now know you have no idea what you are talking
about.

Post by d***@tanj.com
I did not find the text of the UL437 standard, but if the security
planner expects the Medeco cylinders to be drill resistant and sets up
guard patrols based on a 30 minute interval, they could be suprised when
the lock is compromised in 5 minutes.

Now we know why you have no idea what you are talking about. I suggest
that you research a little harder and you will find that the drill test
is for 15 minutes and that 15 minutes is for continued drilling under
pressure. If the tester breaks a bit or even gets tired they stop the
clock. I am sure that there are many lock manufacturers who would
prefer a real life test under real conditions but in fact they are
subjected to a harsher standard.

Post by d***@tanj.com
Doesn't it seem strange that the existance of a device that can decode
Medeco cylinders is discounted simply becasue it's illegal to sell them?
It's not illegal to make them, and one who makes and uses such a device
would not be prosecuted, they'd be sued.

Do you read? If so, you fail to comprehend. The important part of my
previous post was this "Changes were made to the original product to
defeat the Lock Technology tool within 30 days." There were many
changes to the product that invalidated the Lock Technology tool, only
one of those changes was discontinued due to the increase in cost it
would cause. The locks can not be decoded by those methods any longer
and I know of no other methods that will work either.
BBE.

[--Shiva--]

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.
is for 15 minutes and that 15 minutes is for continued drilling under
pressure. If the tester breaks a bit or even gets tired they stop the
clock.

same ideas a safe and the time there..

you got a tl 15, that 15 minutes of MOVING contact.. drilling,
cutting, etc..
change a bit, time is stopped while doing so, so you could have
30 minutes or more in it.
plus, break a carbide bit off in a hole, just for fun..
makes one have PUCKER POWER..

--Shiva--

[d***@tanj.com]

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.

Post by d***@tanj.com
That's what I love about those standards. They preclude using commonly
available tools. If it can be drilled in 5 minutes using a carbide bit,
it can be drilled in 5 minutes.

From that comment we now know you have no idea what you are talking
about.

Post by d***@tanj.com
I did not find the text of the UL437 standard, but if the security
planner expects the Medeco cylinders to be drill resistant and sets up
guard patrols based on a 30 minute interval, they could be suprised when
the lock is compromised in 5 minutes.

Now we know why you have no idea what you are talking about. I suggest
that you research a little harder and you will find that the drill test
is for 15 minutes and that 15 minutes is for continued drilling under
pressure. If the tester breaks a bit or even gets tired they stop the
clock. I am sure that there are many lock manufacturers who would
prefer a real life test under real conditions but in fact they are
subjected to a harsher standard.

Post by d***@tanj.com
Doesn't it seem strange that the existance of a device that can decode
Medeco cylinders is discounted simply becasue it's illegal to sell them?
It's not illegal to make them, and one who makes and uses such a device
would not be prosecuted, they'd be sued.

Do you read? If so, you fail to comprehend. The important part of my
previous post was this "Changes were made to the original product to
defeat the Lock Technology tool within 30 days." There were many
changes to the product that invalidated the Lock Technology tool, only
one of those changes was discontinued due to the increase in cost it
would cause. The locks can not be decoded by those methods any longer
and I know of no other methods that will work either.
BBE.

Such a strongly worded response is not what one expects from Mr Edwards.
I hope he's feeling well.

As to the points made in this post... First of all, it was BBE that said,

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.
Sorry Fred, but you have some misinformation in your post. First of
all, Medeco cylinders are UL 437 rated, look it up, you aren't drilling
them in 5 minutes unless you are using carbide bits.

This implies that BBE thinks it can be done in 5 minutes using commonly
available (carbide) bits. As BBE is an expert, I tend to take his word
for such things. BBE implied that the test does not allow the use of
carbide bits.

As for failing to comprehend, it was BBE that said that the original
Medeco locks were not recalled/replaced because only 7 Lock Technology
tools were sold, and they were somehow taken out of circulation.
My point is that the outlawing of technology does not make the technology
disappear. That point seems fairly clear.

I've never seen a locksmith on this forum say "The Medeco design is
drill resistant for at least 15 minutes using limited tools." I've seen
them say that they are a bear to drill, and they break bits doing it,
and that they hate to waste a medeco cylinder. None of them seem to be
saying that, with proper tools and skill, they can be drilled in less than
15 minutes.

When a facilities manager is working on a security plan, they really have
to know these things so they can plan accordingly. All the locksmiths
here will agree that the idea of a lock is to disuade a crook, or at
least slow the crooks down enough to catch them. Some will even say that
one of the lock's purpose is to simply provide proof of forceful entry.

Daniel

[Billy B. Edwards Jr.]

Post by d***@tanj.com
Such a strongly worded response is not what one expects from Mr Edwards.
I hope he's feeling well.

You are right, my response was a little strong and you probably didn't
deserve that. Some of that was probably due to my being upset with
myself for making a typo that left the "1" out of the "15" in my
original post. I type way to fast many times and obviously sometimes
don't check twice before posting.

Post by d***@tanj.com
As for failing to comprehend, it was BBE that said that the original
Medeco locks were not recalled/replaced because only 7 Lock Technology
tools were sold, and they were somehow taken out of circulation.
My point is that the outlawing of technology does not make the technology
disappear. That point seems fairly clear.

I went and looked, I didn't mention recall or replacing in my post.
Here is what I said;

"Changes were made to the original product to defeat the Lock Technology
tool within 30 days. Since the suit was won, only 7 tools were ever
sold and they have all been accounted for, there is no need for the
added expense of one of the changes that was made to defeat the tool and
it has been discontinued, other changes are still in effect to this
day."

That says that with one exception, changes that defeat that method of
decoding are still in effect today. That is the point that you seem to
have missed. The product made the technology go away because it no
longer worked, the suit was so that everyone would know that the product
was good enough to be defended.
BBE.

[Peter]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:50:29 GMT, "Billy B. Edwards Jr."

Post by Billy B. Edwards Jr.
I went and looked, I didn't mention recall or replacing in my post.
Here is what I said;

In any case since Medeco were successful in stopping the production
and sale of the tool, there would have been no need to recall existing
cylinders or warn users (except possibly maximum security Government
or Military users) - they were not a 'safety hazard' as such and in
any case would have been far more secure than the average six pin
cylinder at the time.

[Evan]

Post by d***@tanj.com
I've never seen a locksmith on this forum say "The Medeco design is
drill resistant for at least 15 minutes using limited tools." I've seen
them say that they are a bear to drill, and they break bits doing it,
and that they hate to waste a medeco cylinder. None of them seem to be
saying that, with proper tools and skill, they can be drilled in less than
15 minutes.
When a facilities manager is working on a security plan, they really have
to know these things so they can plan accordingly. All the locksmiths
here will agree that the idea of a lock is to disuade a crook, or at
least slow the crooks down enough to catch them. Some will even say that
one of the lock's purpose is to simply provide proof of forceful entry.
Daniel

As someone who has worked as a maintenance technician for
several years in many different commercil buildings I have only
seen a few doorways that have been constructed adequately
enough to repel an attacker with even basic hand tools for 15
minutes... Often times playing in the keyway of the lock (picking
or drilling) takes A LOT longer than looking at the door and
determining the weakest "point of entry"...

Case in point: I love it when I see a Medeco cylinder installed in
a door built into a standard commercial-type wall like you would
find in the typical office environment... It doesn't take any fancy
tools to open the door, only a prior knowledge of its width and
a bit of creativity to open the door...

To address your concerns of the facilities manager developing
a security plan, he or she will not rely only on "high security"
locks... In fact a majority of the time they will opt for some kind
of I/C system which allows for unskilled personnel to immediately
rekey locks in the event of a lost key...

I wonder what you mean by "proof of forced entry" as an idea,
I don't see anything mentioned in any of the books I have read
so far about Criminal Investigation that even remotely or
indirectly describes the process of forensic locksmithing
which would be the only way to truly prove the kind of forced
entry you are implying... Tool marks on the door are usually
more than enough to prove forcible entry was made...

Often times a "security plan" is developed only to satisfy the
requirements of an insurance company... The type of door
lock used doesn't matter if there is a system in place to log
the name of every person who comes and goes from the
building... Contracted security personnel are usually hired
on only to monitor the building and to take some of the
burden on their insurance in the event something ever goes
wrong...

Evan,
~~formerly a maintenance man, now a college student

[Joe Kesselman (address as shown)]

Post by Evan
I wonder what you mean by "proof of forced entry" as an idea,

That's more an insurance issue than a legal issue. Insurance often won't
pay if there isn't evidence that the entry was unauthorized. So, yes,

Post by Evan
Tool marks on the door are usually
more than enough to prove forcible entry was made...

Again: Security is relative, not absolute. Understand your real needs
and engineer a solution which addresses them efficiently. A locksmith
can help you ask the right questions and come up with practical answers.

[--Shiva--]

Post by Joe Kesselman (address as shown)
That's more an insurance issue than a legal issue. Insurance often won't
pay if there isn't evidence that the entry was unauthorized. So, yes,

Insurance will not pay on a lot of things that people think they
will..

had an example here long years back..
the 'story'
guy breaks into a house, holds the homeowner at gun point and
takes a nail gun, and staples his feet to the stair floor, then
sets house on fire..

ok, sounds ok..

Fire marshalls did NOT agree with his story.. so, as long as the
fire marshall said its questionable, they refused to pay on
damage to the house..
10 years later, I got a call to come look at the house in
question (at that time I was a building inspector for the city)
it had just been sold at auction by the county and the new owner
wanted to 'fix/rebuild it'
the insurance company NEVER did pay a penny on it..

same case here.. NO damage trail?? too bad..
door kicked OUT? with no ENTRANCE? too bad.. (seen that happen
too-dumb crook)

'things missing', and several keys are out? too bad..

--Shiva--

[Peter]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:46:36 -0500, "Joe Kesselman (address as shown)"

Post by Joe Kesselman (address as shown)

Post by Evan
I wonder what you mean by "proof of forced entry" as an idea,

That's more an insurance issue than a legal issue. Insurance often won't
pay if there isn't evidence that the entry was unauthorized. So, yes,

Similar to small Abloy padlocks which are not that strong but almost
impossible to open 'cleanly' without the proper key. Also why the
British Government was keen to see un unpickable lock developed - so
that 'clean' entry into Buckingham Palace dispatch boxes or 'clean'
operation of Excise padlocked valves in distilleries, etc was not
possible.

[pp]

The question what kind of medeco is it? A rim cyl can be drilled very easly
a mortise also can be done no sweat, a maxum deadbolt with no security
shield a piece of cake in witch I would say 70% are not installed when it
is installed you better have time but not two hours. Yes Medeco can be
drilled with not much noise. I have done it on many occasions

Post by Philippe
Hi,
We've recently had a few robberies in my building. I had a Medeco lock
installed a few months before, so I thought I was safe, but a
policeman told us that even Medeco locks can be drilled (like the
other locks were).
Is this true ?
Thanks
Phil

[pp]

Are you guys really locksmiths ?
If you are than have you or have you not drilled a Medeco what is with all
the assuming and special tool talk, who cares about a medeco tool that you
can't get (Lock Technology tool). philippe never spcified drilling out the
pins if you guys knew what you were talking about than you should know that
there are various ways of drilling thru a medeco,but if you have to go thru
the pins than you should have a special drill kit ready in your truck. I for
one have done the task several times and it is quite simple. if you really
want a challange try drilling an Abloy deadbolt.

Post by Philippe
Hi,
We've recently had a few robberies in my building. I had a Medeco lock
installed a few months before, so I thought I was safe, but a
policeman told us that even Medeco locks can be drilled (like the
other locks were).
Is this true ?
Thanks
Phil

[Mac]

No, you drill the screws that hold the lockset on, only because you dont
want to mess with the medco cylinder before lunchtime, and if its after
lunch, you drill the screws that hold the lockset on. If the medco cylinders
on a safe, get a chair, you'll be working on it for awhile.

Post by Philippe
Hi,
We've recently had a few robberies in my building. I had a Medeco lock
installed a few months before, so I thought I was safe, but a
policeman told us that even Medeco locks can be drilled (like the
other locks were).
Is this true ?
Thanks
Phil

[--Shiva--]

Post by Mac
If the medco cylinders
on a safe, get a chair, you'll be working on it for awhile.

got lucky once, had a Medeco on a file cabinet, 5 minutes and it
was OUT..
HOWEVER, the cabinet WAS to be tossed out and it didnt matter HOW
it came out.

--Shiva--